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I want this to be a free forum for people to discuss things. You know in Philly we don't become violent, we peacefully sort things out.
Pay to play. Simple. Sometimes venues or promoters set an amount of people they expect for you to bring out to a show. This can pay the venue, the bands, themselves...one can say where the money goes;however, only the Booker truly knows. If you do not bring this set amount, you pay the difference. (Example: Venue A says Band B needs to bring 8 people out to their gig-Band B brings 6 so due to the rules- has to pay Venue A the money the door would have made for the two extra people.) See what I mean? (True Story)
Over the past few years of being in the scene you hear how every band is against "pay to play." However, some promoters/bands/music lovers will argue that the advance sales of ticket is just as bad and a new form of this practice. You receive a set of tickets to sell and if you do not sell all of them you return the tickets along with the money for the tickets sold to the promoter. (Very common in today's booking)
Bands feel pressured to sell tickets and bring people out, promoters want to make sure they can make back what is put out to book their show, and the fan is left in the middle of the war between this and that.
Shouldn't bands try their hardest to bring people out to their shows?
Shouldn't the person booking the show make something for his/her effort?
Is it fair to put music lovers in between these battles?
Is this wrong...right...neutral...
Go ahead people. Let me know what you think.
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7 comments:
So, I've ranted about this myself many times, as I've been on both sides of the fence, thought I NEVER, E-V-E-R took money from a band. I always felt that if a band decides they can pull off a pay-to-play and still make it worth their while, either monetarily or with the exposure alone, then go for it. It's not something I practice. The band I'm in will pretty much turn down anything that comes our way like that. There are tons of good venues that don't want you to pre buy tickets, and you can throw shows there all year long if you can draw a crowd.
So, I guess wrapping up, I wouldn't pay to play, and I haven't since I was 15. But, I wouldn't shoot it down entirely until you review all your options and see if it's a good move for your band, just like you should do with any show.
-Ryan Vox
Now that's a question alright. I can see both sides.
Venue wants a band to play that'll bring customers, and Band wants a venue that'll bring new fans. Everyone wants to earn some money/get exposure.
The example you stated seems kinda fair. If the venue only asks you to bring a reasonable amount of people, I guess it's okay. Then again, I can def. see some venues totally being unreasonable about the sales.
Pay to play is bullshit! & that goes for letting the door know who you are there to see as well. Here in NYC the bands that play together are like a family. The show goers come out to see all of the bands not just one! Its not fair to make them choose who will get paid and who won't. This is a crap way to do things.
This has happened to us, We played with a big name punk band, the place was packed, we bring in a bunch of people (more then the out of town bands) and because they are out of towners they get paid and we don't get shit! I would have been OK with it if it was explained that was how it was going to work before we played the show.
I think bookers & clubs would rather play dumb and run after the show, then be straight up with the bands for the start. Thats why we do it ourselves.
Wow this is an open wound… “My opinion”…lets see if I can sum this up?
The music industry starts at a grass roots level…and from there it goes on… up the ladder, to the international level…Right? I think so?
“The industry can’t sell CD’s, venue sales are at an all time low and so they are left with merchandise as the only real money outlet.”
Instead of taking charge of the grass roots bands “ie - local acts” and helping to develop,
(at a very low cost) something they would really enjoy and something their friends and so on…would enjoy, as they did in the late 60's 70's, they continue to manufacture something they think the masses will enjoy, “like, I don’t know, the Ronco burger” or let’s say merchandise, because they can sell that, at least this year!
Maybe the solution is to not let every band that your brother can put together “assuming your brother didn’t go to the music institute or is a natural born talent” get out their and chase the crowd away before a good band goes on.
Example of a good band: someone who might be able to compete with the best band in town, musically not fan based, because fan base will happen quickly with a good band.
To clarify… after 1998 when the industry went through transition and many job losses "due to bad development decisions and falling Cd sales" happened, everyone in the industry became too sacred to take a chance on anything anymore, all the way down to the grass roots level.
Fear is a funny thing …its contagious! Why do you think we have American Idol?
The promoters should screen their acts and only book the “killer” ones, (They could do an open mic, with a good band supplying the gear for exposure, on a Sunday or what ever the venues slow day is, the promoter can charge at the door and probably, with 6 to 8 bands make a good buck and the venue makes money on what was a slow night), “you can tell what a crowd really enjoys by the reaction and the talk in the room and your good band will let u know who the killer musicians were”.
Wouldn’t it be nice to know that when you bought a ticket for a show… every band you were going to see that night… was going to be a great band?!
If this were to happen… the awful promoters would fall to the way side, the good ones would get paid, the crowds might come back, the venues might not have to struggle to stay open and the fans could truly have some pride in the venues they attended.
Get rid of ticket sales…stop feeding off of the bottom…let’s get some real talent in the venues again!
Thanks for listening...
Jimmy
its like I've experienced, and discussed with many people before(including the author of this article, HI AMANDA!)
... Pay to Play does raise a huge battle between the venues and the bands, leaving the fans right in the middle of a fight they want no part of, eventually they will say fuck the band, and the venue, and both will lose out in the end.
Also, it shouldnt matter who the touring band is, or who the locals are, or how many people you bring... if you are on the bill that night, and there is money being made, and lots of people show up, and you play your ass off, (lets not forget that BOTH the VENUE AND the bands should be advertising), therefore everyone should get an equal share of the pie... because while the local bands, and the venues should be advertising, and booking, the traveling bands need gas money to get to the next town...
It should be a community effort to make all shows fun, successful, and starting grounds for what could be future careers(if you play your cards right)
also, present more WEEKEND shows, and more showcases for smaller local talent where it doesnt cose anyone a dime to put it on, and good things can come from it
As someone who plays shows and books shows on a fairly regular basis I can probably offer unique perspective.
Original Music, from the bands that play shows at The Fire all the way up to someone like Prince is based on said artist drawing a crowd, if Citizens Bank park didn't think The Police Would draw a crowd they wouldn't have done a show there.
I've worked with venues that advertise, as a promoter I do my job and promote but let's face it I can send out emails and pass out flyers all I want as a promoter but when you work with bands with no name recognition for the most part (as opposed to someone like The Roots or Prince which would be an easy sell) that flyer and that band means nothing to the average person and they're not comin to the show, meaning 95% of any crowd that comes to any show will be of the bands doing.
It's naive to expect people to come out to see you play just because it's local music. People are gonna come beacuse they like the band that's playing. It's unfair for bands to be relying on a band that did promote well to show up early or stay late to hear you, if your band blows people will walk out plain and simple.
As an artist and a booker I'm all for advance ticket sales. You just have to make sure you know the terms as far as the split beforehand. It allows a venue to know how many people to expect, it keeps everyone's money seperate so everyone knows how much they're getting paid and no one's fighting about money at the end of the night, and if people buy a ticket and don't show up it still counts as far as your draw and your tally for the night. It's a way to get people to commit to coming instead of relying on them to make a gameday decision.
Although I've never done pay to play (That's pretty low) I've had to do minnimum draws at some of the places that I book for some bands because frankly some bands will take a show from you with no intention of doing any kind of promotion for it. From Boy Wonder to Genesis your job as a band is to put asses in seats.
Bookers should do a better job of putting shows together to keep people there. The problem with many of them is that they put a bunch of acts together that have nothing in common just because they have a big draw. A fan of another band is only going to stick around if they like what they hear.
Most bookers also fail to develop thier name or reputation. This hinders no one but them. If a booker/promoter has a reputation for quality entertainment then perhaps people would be more apt to come out.
Both parties have thigns that they can imporve upon to make the situation better.
For the people that suggest more weekend shows, I agree with you, there should be more problem is a DJ on a Friday Night is going to crush a live band show in terms of draw until the bands prove otherwise. How do you do that? The bands need to stop complaining and draw on a weeknight, and as a fan if you liek your favorite band so much you should just suck it up and come out and bring as many people with you as possible.
This is a consumer driven buisness and a clubs not gonna do anythign on a prime night unless they can make money.
all this stuff sounds great but cmon, hardly anyone REALLY cares about local music(as much as i hate to say that) people just go to see their friends play. the real problem is though lately people are having a hard time wanting to drop 10-12 bucks to see their friends band play. the prices are getting a little ridiculous for small acts dont ya think? as far as tickets go, i dont mind it as long as i dont have to pay for ones i couldnt sell. to make a band pay just to play is retarded and makes no sense. where would the venue be if it werent for the bands in the first place? theyre just feeding off the desperation of bands wanting their music to get out there. sats on 2nd st is a huge example. when we first started booking there it was like 200 plus kegs, now its up to 700 with no beer. how are we supposed to make our money back on that? its just unrealistic.
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